"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
09/05/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None
82
100|
"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
09/05/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None | 82
| 100 |
The ad on the website said, "1969 Chevrolet Z28 Camaro, numbers matching." My client bought it and paid more than $25,000 for it. The seller was a dealer specializing in muscle and collector cars from the 1960s and 1970s.
When he got it home, the buyer contacted his insurance agent about getting proper insurance on the car and was told an inspector would come out to do an appraisal. Obviously, someone could buy a ratty old junkyard Camaro, insure it for a ton of money and have it disappear – to file a fraudulent insurance claim. And no one wants that.
The inspector came out, walked around the car and commented on how nice it looked. Especially since it was not a Z28. The leaf springs were wrong and the motor was date-coded wrong. The inspector said someone had taken a run-of-the-mill Camaro and dressed it up as a Z28. As such, it was worth nowhere near what the buyer had paid for it and the insurance company would not insure it for that amount either.
The buyer called the seller who refused to help. He said the car had been sold "as-is" and that was that.
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , "as-is" merely means that the seller is disclaiming the warranty of merchantability. It does not – indeed, it cannot – disclaim express warranties made by the seller at the time of sale. Here, the seller had made two such express warranties. That the car was a "Z28" and that it was "numbers matching." After getting nowhere with the seller, the buyer contacted me and we filed suit.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
Amazingly, the attorney for the seller tried to argue with me that "numbers matching" has no specific meaning in the automobile world and any buyer was foolish to think otherwise. He could not explain away the "Z28" argument, other than to say he did not think it was a warranty.
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
It also amounted to fraud, according to some guy cited in an article about fake classic cars in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
After haggling back and forth for a while and getting nowhere, I retained an expert on Z28s. A day or two later the expert called me and told me that the seller's attorney had also contacted him and offered to retain him. The expert told the other attorney they were in a world of hurt because "numbers matching" is a term of art which has specific meaning and this car was not a Z28.
Shortly after, the seller agreed to buy the car back, unwind the deal, and pay my client's fees and costs. Meanwhile, I suspect that the car is out there somewhere, having been sold as a "Z28" to some other poor sap.
Z28 experts can weigh in below on what telltale signs there are for authenticity – like which side of the steering column the speedo cable comes through the firewall – but most of them are not common knowledge among non-Z28 experts (and I do not claim to be one. That is why I would hire one).
And yes, we all know that my client could have avoided this by having the vehicle inspected by an expert before he bought it. But, few people ever actually have their cars professionally inspected before purchase. If nothing else, that is the lesson here.
EDIT/NOTE: My client paid "more than $25,000" for the vehicle. In MI, our pleading only requires us to specify a figure above or below that. In this case, it was ABOVE that. I often use facts from the pleadings for my stories, since they are public documents. Sorry for any confusion. (But the price was not $25,000.)
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
(Photo is not the car from the actual case.)
Follow me on twitter:
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
Steve Lehto has been practicing consumer protection and
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
for 23 years in Michigan. He taught Consumer Protection at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law for ten years and wrote
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
. He also wrote
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
and
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
CalzoneGolem
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:05 |
|
Hopefully they cleaned the shards of glass out of the hvac.
camaroboy68ss
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:06 |
|
yeah there are more 69 Z/28s today that built in 69, restamping of blocks and other bits are rampant in the Camaro community. You really have to do your homework on a car and the devil is in the details.
505Turbeaux
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:07 |
|
I think your articles are great Steve. Please keep them coming!
|
SteveLehto
> CalzoneGolem
09/05/2014 at 13:07 |
|
You and I both know that one cannot test drive a vehicle without being fully encased in Kevlar. I, personally, have an expert come out to examine the car. If it LOOKS okay, I then tell him I need to run an errand and I have HIM go for a test drive. If he survives, I then consider purchasing.
|
SteveLehto
> 505Turbeaux
09/05/2014 at 13:09 |
|
Thanks. (Now, just tell the guy who called me a "stupid prick" the other day in the comments!)
Smultron
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:09 |
|
And now I wonder, how many of all those 1967 Shelby Mustangs are the real thing...
Very Informative, though, thank you!
themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:11 |
|
But the numbers DID match......to a chassis and engine that were not the ones used for this mashup :P
But seriously, fuck that guy with a lead pipe - "Numbers matching has no meaning" then why would you bother putting it on your ad? You obviously knew that it not only had meaning, but significant meaning. And if you knew that, then you probably knew what that meant. Or at least, you should've googled it before using it. Good to see that the truth prevailed here.
|
SteveLehto
> Smultron
09/05/2014 at 13:11 |
|
If you think about the crazy prices some cars can get nowadays, you see why someone would go to the trouble of reproducing one. This is becoming a very serious problem. The good news is that there are people out there you can consult. Before you drop the bags of money on one of these, spend a couple extra bucks BEFOREHAND.
desertdog5051
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:12 |
|
...because numbers matching is a term of art... Would you explain what a term of art is, please.
Conan
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:12 |
|
You probably beat his dealership in court.
|
SteveLehto
> themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
09/05/2014 at 13:13 |
|
Thanks. Sometimes (I hate to say it out loud) attorneys make really stupid arguments. Luckily, the guy came around and settled. But yes, NUMBERS MATCHING is a term of art which means something. Thanks for the comment.
|
SteveLehto
> desertdog5051
09/05/2014 at 13:16 |
|
In the law, stuff people say at the time of sale falls into several categories, one of which is "sales puffery" (I kid you not). They can tell you the car "runs nice" and the car can blow up with no consequences from that statement. Puffery = meaningless. What I mean by a Term of Art here is that anyone in this community of buyers and sellers would assign those words specific meaning. They are not puffery. As such, they can be actionable.
|
505Turbeaux
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:16 |
|
let me at him! haha asshole
|
desertdog5051
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:19 |
|
Thanks, Steve. Learned something new today.
|
SteveLehto
> desertdog5051
09/05/2014 at 13:21 |
|
Thanks for the note.
McMike
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:27 |
|
Two lessons to be learned here...
The buyer actually has some protection against fraud if the car is not as advertised.
...
|
SteveLehto
> McMike
09/05/2014 at 13:28 |
|
Sadly, I can only recommend this one time. Thanks!
|
McMike
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:37 |
|
I can only assume that the initial appraisal would have cost less in the long run for your client.
|
SteveLehto
> McMike
09/05/2014 at 13:39 |
|
In terms of hassle, yes. We actually got our fees and costs covered by the other guy here so we broke even. No one likes litigation.
|
CalzoneGolem
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:39 |
|
Let me call my buddy ...
|
SteveLehto
> CalzoneGolem
09/05/2014 at 13:40 |
|
He'd make Chum try it first.
Tohru
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:46 |
|
I kinda wish you could post the names of the dealerships that do this kind of screwing so we could avoid them. But with this being the Internet, someone would end up blowing up their inboxes and voicemails informing them about how they are "literally" worse than Hitler.
|
SteveLehto
> Tohru
09/05/2014 at 13:49 |
|
So do I. But you are right, legalities and such.
Or a million times worse than Hitler?
As Kent Brockman said, "Ladies and gentlemen, I've been to Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq, and I can say without hyperbole that this is a million times worse than all of them put together."
JDIGGS
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:50 |
|
Why are you buying cars for clients when you don't know any of this?
You could have spent 2 hrs on the internet and avoided these problems, exactly what services are you offering. You really should a) quit your job b) take the time to do a good job. Otherwise you are just another cog in the shitty car sales machine.
Bahhh.
Takuro Spirit
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:51 |
|
I have a similar story of much more humble prices and vehicles.
I bought a winter beater '97 Bravada off eBay from a seller a few hours from home for $1500 because it was mostly rust free, had new tires, and had as the seller stated in the auction "4WD works".
After winning the auction I went out with the family to pick it up on a cold and windy day, at the seller's very nice house in a very nice part of town near a very nice golf course. This is the guy selling a $1500 Bravada? Oooooookay. He tells me he is retired, and delivers newspapers and wanted a reliable 4WD truck to do so in the winter months and bought this. When he realized it was too hard to drive from the right seat with the center console and floor shifter in the way, he decided to get rid of it.
So before I paid him for it, I made it clear that I wanted to test drive it and inspect it visually as best I could to make sure it matched the auction's descriptions. Ebay is not a binding contract, so if something was fishy about the truck, I would back out of the deal, and only be out gas money and time to drive out there.
So I drive it, and everything works okay. Took it around some tight turns to make sure there was no binding in the transfercase or front diff, and it was fine. Took a peek underneath it on the cold ground and besides some normal GM truck seepage, there was no leaks.
Anywho, I paid for it, drove it home, and the next day took it to work in the rain to put it on a lift and REALLY inspect it. That's when I floored it at a stop light. And the back tires just spun..... turns out, the truck was MISSING the front driveshaft. I immediately took pictures and called the seller and e-mailed him the photos. "How can the '4WD work' when the front shaft is MISSING?" He claims to not be a mechanic, had no idea it was missing, but tells me the car was sold "as-is" and he's not responsible or anything.
I call PayPal.
I call eBay.
I file every type of case I can.
PayPal won't help because it's an eBay Motors deal. Apparently eBay Motors is just weird like that.
EBay won't help because the value of the car is too low.
Well no shit, but now I have to spend above its value just to get it to what the seller claimed it was.
I ended up paying $225 for a shaft, to find out the reason it was missing was because the transfer case was shot. Spent another $200 on a transfer case to find out the front axle seals were shot. Spent a couple bucks replacing the seals and a lot of long hours after work in the shop to put it all in.
Drove the thing for the winter and traded it in on a 2002 Escape we had on the lot here at work. Got my $1500 back at least.
Now if it were a $15,000 truck I would have found a lawyer, and now that I know that since he implied the "4WD works", that's expressing a warranty, and I right?
Not that I'll ever buy a car off eBay again without an inspection, but hey. I was in a pinch that winter and it was cheap as hell.
TheCraigy
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 13:55 |
|
Well attorneys are, after all, pricks. But I would take offense at the stupid part. ;)
|
SteveLehto
> JDIGGS
09/05/2014 at 13:55 |
|
I was going to ignore this comment but it is too comical. I did not buy a car for my client. As stated in the second sentence, "My client bought it." What services am I offering? I am an attorney (not a car salesman). In this case, I got the car bought back AFTER my client told me about it. He did not tell me about the car (indeed, I did not even know the client) until after he had bought it.
Why quit my job? It looks like I did my job perfectly well here. And, since I got my client 100% of what he was entitled to, I apparently did "take the time to do a good job."
I am not part of the "car sales machine."
Reading comprehension much?
|
SteveLehto
> TheCraigy
09/05/2014 at 13:56 |
|
He also called me "unfunny." That was the deepest wound.
|
SteveLehto
> Takuro Spirit
09/05/2014 at 13:59 |
|
Wow. I can tell you that in MICH (not sure which state you are in) you'd have a decent case. The missing drive shaft would certainly mean that there was no possible subjective way a person could assert that the 4WD "worked."
|
TheCraigy
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:01 |
|
But it's ok if he's just not smart enough to understand your humor.
|
SteveLehto
> TheCraigy
09/05/2014 at 14:02 |
|
Okay. I feel all better now. Thanks!
|
Tohru
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:04 |
|
"It's a million times worse than Hitler and Goebbels having a love child together!" - some 16 year old on Tumblr, probably.
|
McMike
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:08 |
|
This actually happened to me once before...
I bought a Austin Mini Cooper clone from a classic Mini dealer about 10 years ago.
It listed that it had a bunch of good parts, (stainless this, bigger brakes, drivetrain from a '91 Cooper, etc.. ). I knew it was a clone, so I went in not expecting anything numbers matching (which would have doubled the asking price) I wanted a great, clean runner.
I looked it over, ran a compression test, drove it a little bit, saw that there were a few things that needed attention (ball joints, a tune, a new wheel or a spin balance, leaking gas cap, etc..), so I decided to buy it. I thought it was a little under priced for what it was, so I figured I could throw a few bucks into it.
The best part of the deal for me, was that it was built on a brand new Heritage Body shell, which is HUGE deal. It was listed at (I think) $10.5K, and I talked him down to $9-somethingK and took it home.
Finally, I was going to own a rust-free car.
Later, after discovering speaker cutouts under the rear parcel shelf, and a few other hints once I started going over it, I realized that the body shell was not new. I was pissed. I contacted the seller (importer) and his overseas guy who built it.
The overseas guy knew exactly what it was, and told me what engine it had in it, the compression ratio, the final drive, what the front and rear subframes came out of, and what wiring harness he used so I could get the right manuals. He was really helpful.
The builder's description (which I found later on the internet)
"Based around the mechanicals of a 1991 Mini Cooper, fully converted shell to Mk1 specifications. All new trim, chrome, lights, wiring. New Cooper S disk set and wheels"
The guy that sold it had no idea what it was, and just listed it (for some reason) with the "new body shell" in the description. The builder was pissed too. While the car was rust free, it was not new sheet metal.
After turning them against each other, and pressuring the seller with words like "fraud" and "dishonest" the seller eventually offered to buy it back.
Then I thought about it. I realized that $9-somethingK was a fair price for a rust-free well-sorted Cooper clone.
What did I do? I beat on the seller for a little bit and eventually got some parts out of him for being an idiot and misleading me about it being new sheet metal.
I still have the car.
|
SteveLehto
> Tohru
09/05/2014 at 14:10 |
|
Understatement of the year.
|
Takuro Spirit
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:10 |
|
WI.
It was such a low cost of repair it didn't matter as much to me to try and get the state involved. Or a lawyer.
I did count myself lucky because the junkyard I deal with had a ton of cases listed all around the $300-$500 range depending on miles, and then Monday when I decided to just order one put it in and be done with it, they all dropped to $175. I bought the lowest mile unit they had. It was a small victory during a very shitty week of dealing with the truck and the seller.
|
SteveLehto
> McMike
09/05/2014 at 14:12 |
|
Very cool. Thanks for posting.
mr_gofast
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:13 |
|
hes just butthurt, he got shafted buying this GNX ( numbers matching i swear!!)
|
McMike
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:13 |
|
Ah, nice. So he wasn't out anything, and you still got paid.
Good news all around.
|
SteveLehto
> Takuro Spirit
09/05/2014 at 14:15 |
|
Cool. I always hate when people try to play stupid/ignorant when it favors them to do so. The law normally does not recognize that - your right to be stupid/ignorant - but here the transaction costs would have not made it worth pursuing. You got out lucky. Some people without the wherewithal to do the work would have just taken the loss and dumped it.
|
mr_gofast
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:15 |
|
isnt a missing driveshaft a safety liability? and ergo selling one without one is like selling a car without brakes and having someone die cause of it?
|
SteveLehto
> mr_gofast
09/05/2014 at 14:16 |
|
I hear that thing also has a secret carburetor that gets 250 MPG but GM commandos are going to come by later and steal it before it gets too much publicity.
|
SteveLehto
> McMike
09/05/2014 at 14:17 |
|
Yes. Sometimes these things do work out!
|
mr_gofast
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:17 |
|
damn them GM!
|
SteveLehto
> mr_gofast
09/05/2014 at 14:19 |
|
Cars sold by individuals to other individuals (in most states) are sold "as is." I.e., with all faults. Those faults could be missing driveshafts, bad brakes, etc etc. The law in MICH doesn't force a private seller to bring a car up to any particular safety standard to sell it. I know some states have safety inspections and such but they are in the minority.
|
mr_gofast
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:20 |
|
good to know.
|
SteveLehto
> mr_gofast
09/05/2014 at 14:24 |
|
It's actually one of the biggest misconceptions out there. That and the (not real) Right to Return Anything Within Three Days for No Reason Law. Which does not exist. http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/when-you-buy-a…
Captain_Spadaro
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:33 |
|
There's a 1st gen 'Z/28' that sometimes shows up at my local cruise night. I'm not a Camaro man or expert, but I'm pretty sure the 1st gen Z/28 didn't have a big block option.
Kate's Dirty Sister
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:36 |
|
I once bought a Ferrari F40 on ebay, got it shipped home.
I knew it was fake as soon as I open the door, F40 didn't had cassette players.
StevenG
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:37 |
|
Yeah, but how do we know this guy has any idea what he is talking about?
bugeyedfatwalrus
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:38 |
|
You can't fix stupid Steve ....... but you CAN represent them!
|
SteveLehto
> StevenG
09/05/2014 at 14:38 |
|
It was in the paper. IT MUST BE TRUE!
|
StevenG
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:39 |
|
Trolls gonna troll.
Can't you delete those comments? Does dismissing them do anything?
|
SteveLehto
> bugeyedfatwalrus
09/05/2014 at 14:39 |
|
But the choice is mine, right? Hmmmmmm.
|
StevenG
> desertdog5051
09/05/2014 at 14:40 |
|
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=term+of+art
boobytrapsandtreasure
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:40 |
|
I hope this does not turn out to be the case with by Yenko Datsun 300ZX and Shelby Pinto.
|
SteveLehto
> StevenG
09/05/2014 at 14:41 |
|
You can ignore them but the problem is that if you acknowledge them once, it allows them to keep posting. So they can get worse after the first comment and there's nothing you can do. No big deal.
xilly
> JDIGGS
09/05/2014 at 14:41 |
|
you are right sir but you should
a) quit typing or commenting
or
b) take the time to read the article (slower?)
saying that, I had a good laugh reading your comment so nothing is lost...
|
StevenG
> mr_gofast
09/05/2014 at 14:41 |
|
Pretty sure that's a lambo, dude.
heeltoehero
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:41 |
|
A numbers matching 69 Z/28 is worth well over $25,000.00. They generally go in the 50-60k range Anyone in the market for one should probably have known that. However, $25,000.00 is a good price for a quality clone. (Unless this happened back in the 90s, before the muscle car boom. You could get a good original Z/28 for 25k then.)
|
SteveLehto
> boobytrapsandtreasure
09/05/2014 at 14:42 |
|
Is that two cars? I thought maybe you had the Yenko Datsun Shelby Pinto 300ZX (Turbo). One of one made.
Sethism
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:42 |
|
Let me put one to you, Esquire:
Let's say I go to see a man about a car. It's a car I've always wanted, and it's fairly rare.
Let's say this seller tells me the car needs tons of work, is rusty, won't pass a safety inspection, and has a plethora of dangerous exhaust/fuel/brake fluid leaks. Also, the dash is lit up like a Cheistmas tree, which the seller acknowledges.
Even though the car is worth $800 in it's current condition, he's asking $3,200, because it's a bit rare and there aren't any others for sale in the next 3 states currently.
If I paid, say $2,800 for said car that was warranted to be a complete overpriced basket case by the seller, am I, legally speaking, an impassioned hopeless fool?
|
SteveLehto
> Sethism
09/05/2014 at 14:43 |
|
Not sure if this is a legal question or a cry for help.
Michael Prichinello
> JDIGGS
09/05/2014 at 14:43 |
|
You're hurting my brain, man.
hedbutter
> 505Turbeaux
09/05/2014 at 14:44 |
|
+1 I have learned a ton of information from these, definitely keep them up!
Hifrequency
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:44 |
|
What other items in a car besides the engine matter when getting a numbers matching car?
Dream Theater of the Absurd
> Captain_Spadaro
09/05/2014 at 14:44 |
|
I think you're right. If I remember correctly, the '67-'69 Z/28 came with a 302 small-block as it was designed to run in Trans-Am (which had a displacement limit of 5 liters).
MFEJAL grey because who knows...
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:45 |
|
Mr. Letho, if I call you a bad lawyer, it will affect your capabilities as lawyer? No.
If a nobody calls you a stupid prick, are you going to change to be one? No.
Its Friday, get ready for the weekend!!!!
Goofnik
> mr_gofast
09/05/2014 at 14:45 |
|
Nah, he bought a classic Cobra and is wondering why it isn't worth anything.
Wave Motion Gun
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:45 |
|
One could argue that "worked" is a past tense verb and completely true, as, at some time in the past it probably did. (I know the original comment says "works." Just being a smartass...
johnny_row_your_own
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:46 |
|
I always look forward to these articles Steve. Thanks for all the great knowledge (and laughs).
|
factsonly1
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:46 |
|
The guy bought a z28 without even knowing what to look for? Wow. Someone has way to much trust for people.
syaieya
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:46 |
|
It's stuff like this that makes me worry for when I finally have the chance to get my dream cars.
Only, ontop of this there is also the fact that two of them were sold only outside of the US.
But in that same breath, would a fake one be good enough to pounce at and not worry if it's the real deal or not?
Sure a fake one may be missing a few little elements and you couldn't boast to say you had one of the very few, but that's a lot of stuff on the line and any number of it could go wrong in a hurry.
Le Monstre
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:47 |
|
I'm sure this is happening more then we know sadly. As they say, there's more 454 SS Chevelles out there then was originally made. If I was to spend more then $25K on a classic specific vehicle, I myself would attempt to learn as much as I could about determining the authenticity of the vehicle, though I'm sure in a short amount of time, you may not learn as much as a Camaro Z28 expert, but learning the date coding on an engine would be one of the easiest things to inspect if they're saying it's number's matching.
|
StevenG
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:47 |
|
So Kinja is as bad as it looks.
WaddleLoo
> JDIGGS
09/05/2014 at 14:48 |
|
I am Jack's complete lack of reading comprehension.
damnthisburnershitsux
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:48 |
|
But, few people ever actually have their cars professionally inspected before purchase. If nothing else, that is the lesson here.
this bears repeating, you wouldn't buy a home without a home inspection, why would you buy a car without one?
BrianMadigan
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:48 |
|
Just like rolling back the odometer, or changing the numbers to make a 'numbers matching' car, it's fraud. The dealer might not have known that its a fake Z28 though. Unless they did the work to put all the badges and stuff on it, they also could have bought it 'as is'. (IANALAFAIK)
|
SteveLehto
> Le Monstre
09/05/2014 at 14:48 |
|
I say find an expert and pay the money. It's an investment.
STREPITUS
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:48 |
|
Always enjoy reading your stories and look forward to reading many more!
|
SteveLehto
> StevenG
09/05/2014 at 14:48 |
|
It's got pros and cons. Some parts of it I really like. The ease with which you can write and assemble the pieces for one thing.
occamsrezr
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:49 |
|
Fascinating article. Nice posting to Oppo!
|
geffs10
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:50 |
|
25k should give it away..
|
damnthisburnershitsux
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:50 |
|
don't feed the trolls, as tempting as it may be
|
SteveLehto
> BrianMadigan
09/05/2014 at 14:50 |
|
Interesting point. The dealer might not have known. Which is why breach of warranty is a better cause of action to pursue here than fraud. It is irrelevant in most states as to what the seller's state of mind is when they sell something with a warranty which turns out to be breached. If the seller here was innocent, their remedy was to pursue the person who sold it to them.
|
WaddleLoo
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:50 |
|
That's a good win!
I can't imagine it is typical to get fees paid for in this situation. Does that mean the dealer was embarrassed he got caught or do you think he didn't know and actually felt bad about the transaction?
|
SteveLehto
> geffs10
09/05/2014 at 14:51 |
|
It was "more than" $25K. I was merely pointing out that it was over the threshold in MICH to get the case into Circuit Court.
DoYouEvenShift
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:51 |
|
Well, since its not "valuable" maybe itll be driven and enjoyed instead of stored up somewhere.
|
SteveLehto
> damnthisburnershitsux
09/05/2014 at 14:51 |
|
Now you tell me . . .
|
StevenG
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:52 |
|
Can you get insurance for these kinds of things? Like title insurance for a house?
Arrivederci
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:52 |
|
First rule of buying anything rare, fragile or potentially expensive to fix - pre-purchase inspection (PPI) by a licensed expert. If Rennlist has taught me anything, it's that. Saved a number of guys asses on scored cylinders, failing motors, overrevs, etc.
Also, did anything else happen to the dealer? Essentially what they did constituted fraud, no? Shouldn't they have been slapped with some form of a penalty or suspension of their dealer license, instead of just making the customer whole?
|
SteveLehto
> WaddleLoo
09/05/2014 at 14:52 |
|
I don't know why they settled. Sometimes we don't know. Fees are tough to recover these days, you are right.
|
BrianMadigan
> mr_gofast
09/05/2014 at 14:52 |
|
I imagine the transfer case and diff is getting dried out and full of shit because there's no seal, unless someone shoved some rags in there to keep it from sloshing out.
|
Sethism
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:53 |
|
Nothing gets past you, Lehto. This is why we pay you the big bucks!
|
SteveLehto
> StevenG
09/05/2014 at 14:53 |
|
I am not aware of any. Interesting idea. Not sure how large the market would be.
The Gray Adder
> SteveLehto
09/05/2014 at 14:53 |
|
In other words, a Z-28 Camaro is a specific kind of Camaro, and if you try to sell a regular Camaro as a Z-28, you are committing fraud, and the as-is clause in your sales contract is not enforceable.
|
SteveLehto
> Sethism
09/05/2014 at 14:54 |
|
Yes. And you have paid me nothing so far. Which proves the old adage, "You get what you pay for!"
|
WaddleLoo
> McMike
09/05/2014 at 14:54 |
|
I wouldn't think calling a dealer dishonest would be a threat. More like a badge of honor for them.
|
SteveLehto
> The Gray Adder
09/05/2014 at 14:55 |
|
Yes. "as is" only means there is no warranty of merchantability (i.e., that the car is safe and reliable transportation). It is not a Get Out of Jail Free card for the dealer.
The Devil Drives a Mustang (Rotary Pending)
> JDIGGS
09/05/2014 at 14:55 |
|
I think you might be getting Mr Lehto and Mr Parland mixed up here.
BigBlock440
> damnthisburnershitsux
09/05/2014 at 14:57 |
|
Why not? I've got eyes.